PS3′s Cell three times more powerful as the Xbox 360 processor?

7 November 2006
Posted by:

Cell ProcessorThis summer Sony created a training website for Canadian Wal Mart employees. The access codes got leaked when a store visitor saw a manager put up internal documents around the store.

After logging in, Sony marketing spin quotes can be found while employees read, learn & test their PS3 knowledge. Here’s the real gem:

“Welcome to your PS3 Retail Online Training. We trust that you will find the following information valuable and assist you in understanding and explaining PS3 Technology to your customers and staff. … The Cell Processor is essentially as powerful as 3 Xbox 360 CPU’s or 35 PlayStation® 2 CPU’s

And you wonder why store clerks so seldom know what they are talking about? How in the world is “The Cell is actually 7 SPU’s (Synthetic Processing Units) each running at 3.2 GHZ” supposed to inform customers? Here’s a screenshot (click to enlarge) of one of the tests where employees can win prizes if they get all the answers right.
ps3 training website

Oh and by the way, most developers say that the horsepower inside both the Xbox 360 and PS3 will be comparable a few years from now as it’s all about what they can get out of their processors to use in-game. That’s a good thing and also why Gears of War look prettier in graphical detail than any PS3 launch games shown so far.

A direct quote from Silicon Knights president Denis Dyack says: “The 360 and the PS3 are equal in power in my eyes,” Dyack says. “Maybe the PS3 has more processing power. The 360 has more available memory. It’s pretty much a net, net. The public perception of the PS3 was that it was much more powerful. To developers, they look even.

Blog Widget by LinkWithin

Categories: News

  • Kevin

    Now the 360’s GPU is one impressive piece of work and I’ll say from the get go it’s much more advanced than the PS3’s GPU so I’m not sure where to begin, but I’ll start with what Microsoft said about it. Microsoft said Xenos was clocked at 500MHZ and that it had 48-way parallel floating-point dynamically-scheduled shader pipelines (48 unified shader units or pipelines) along with a polygon performance of 500 Million triangles a second.

    Before going any further I’ll clarify this 500 Million Triangles a second claim. Can the 360’s GPU actually achieve this? Yes it can, BUT there would be no pixels or color at all. It’s the triangle setup rate for the GPU and it isn’t surprising it has such a higher triangle setup rate due to it having 48 shaders units capable of performing vertex operations whereas all other released GPUs can only dedicate 8 shader units to vertex operations. The PS3 GPU’s triangle setup rate at 550MHZ is 275 million a second and if its 500MHZ will have 250 million a second. This is just the setup rate do NOT expect to see games with such an excessive number of polygons because it wont happen.

    Microsoft also says it can also achieve a pixel-fillrate of 16Gigasamples per second. This GPU here inside the Xbox 360 is literally an early ATI R600, which when released by ATI for the pc will be a Directx 10 GPU. Xenos in a lot of areas manages to meet many of the requirements that would qualify it as a Directx 10 GPU, but falls short of the requirements in others. What I found interesting was Microsoft said the 360’s GPU could perform 48 billion shader operations per second back in 2005. However Bob Feldstein, VP of engineering for ATI, made it very clear that the 360’s GPU can perform 2 of those shaders per cycle so the 360’s GPU is actually capable of 96 billion shader operations per second.

    To quote ATI on the 360’s GPU they say.
    “On chip, the shaders are organized in three SIMD engines with 16 processors per unit, for a total of 48 shaders. Each of these shaders is comprised of four ALUs that can execute a single operation per cycle, so that each shader unit can execute four floating-point ops per cycle.”
    # 48 shader units * 4 ops per cycle = 192 shader ops per clock
    # Xenos is clocked at 500MHZ *192 shader ops per clock = 96 billion shader ops per second.

    (Did anyone notice that each shader unit on the 360’s GPU doesn’t perform as many ops per pipe as the rsx? The 360 GPU makes up for it by having superior architecture, having many more pipes which operate more efficiently and along with more bandwidth.)

    Did Microsoft just make a mistake or did they purposely misrepresent their GPU to lead Sony on? The 360’s GPU is revolutionary in the sense that it’s the first GPU to use a Unified Shader architecture. According to developers this is as big a change as when the vertex shader was first introduced and even then the inclusion of the vertex shader was merely an add-on not a major change like this. The 360’s GPU also has a daughter die right there on the chip containing 10MB of EDRAM. This EDRAM has a framebuffer bandwidth of 256GB/s which is more than 5 times what the RSX or any GPU for the pc has for its framebuffer (even higher than G80’s framebuffer).

    Thanks to the efficiency of the 360 GPU’s unified shader architecture and this 10MB of EDRAM the GPU is able to achieve 4XFSAA at no performance cost. ATI and Microsoft’s goal was to eliminate memory bandwidth as a bottleneck and they seem to have succeeded. If there are any pc gamers out there they notice that when they turn on things such as AA or HDR the performance goes down that’s because those features eat bandwidth hence the efficiency of the GPU’s operation decreases as they are turned on. With the 360 HDR+4XAA simultaneously are like nothing to the GPU with proper use of the EDRAM. The EDRAM contains a 3D logic unit which has 192 Floating Point Unit processors inside. The logic unit will be able to exchange data with the 10MB of RAM at 2 Terabits a second. Things such as antialiasing, computing z depths or occlusion culling can happen on the EDRAM without impacting the GPU’s workload.

    Xenos writes to this EDRAM for its framebuffer and it’s connected to it via a 32GB/sec connection (this number is extremely close to the theoretical because the EDRAM is right there on the 360 GPU’s daughter die.) Don’t forget the EDRAM has a bandwidth of 256GB/s and its only by dividing this 256GB/s by the initial 32GB/s that we get from the connection of Xenos to the EDRAM we find out that Xenos is capable of multiplying its effective bandwidth to the frame buffer by a factor of 8 when processing pixels that make use of the EDRAM, which includes HDR or AA and other things. This leads to a maximum of 32*8=256GB/s which, to say the least, is a very effective way of dealing with bandwidth intensive tasks.

    In order for this to be possible developers would need to setup their rendering engine to take advantage of both the EDRAM and the available onboard 3D logic. If anyone is confused why the 32GB/s is being multiplied by 8 its because once data travels over the 32GB/s bus it is able to be processed 8 times by the EDRAM logic to the EDRAM memory at a rate of 256GB/s so for every 32GB/s you send over 256GB/s gets processed. This results in RSX being at a bandwidth disadvantage in comparison to Xenos. Needless to say the 360 not only has an overabundance of video memory bandwidth, but it also has amazing memory saving features. For example to get 720P with 4XFSAA on traditional architecture would require 28MB worth of memory. On the 360 only 16MB is required. There are also features in the 360′s Direct3D API where developers are able to fit 2 128×128 textures into the same space required for one, for example. So even with all the memory and all the memory bandwidth, they are still very mindful of how it’s used.

  • Kevin

    #

    How is one CPU better than another?

    GFLOPS is something that gets thrown around a lot, but it should be clear that the peak theoretical GFLOP numbers for both these CPUs are:
    # 115GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for 360 CPU
    # 218GFLOPS Theoretical Peak Performance for PS3 CPU.

    These CPU theories will not be achieved in real world performance. What IBM did when testing for theoretical peaks on both CPUs can’t really be considered as representative of how the processors would actually perform in real world situations, because of the type of testing done is too controlled. It’s a much too perfect of an environment and game development is going to involve an unforgiving environment that doesn’t cater so well to the perfect environment the CPUs were tested under.

    The GFLOP numbers for the PS3 were calculated based on 8 running SPE, so the fact that the PS3 uses only 6 SPE for game applications lowers the peak theoretical even further, as majority of the floating point work on the PS3’s CPU is done via the SPE. Each SPE has a peak theoretical of 25.6GFLOPS. So the total peak theoretical performance for all 6 SPE would be 153.6GFLOPS, but why is that number also not achievable?

    In IBM’s controlled testing environment, their optimized code on 8 SPE only yielded a performance number of 155.5GFLOPS. If it took 8 SPE to achieve that, no way 6 will be able to and that testing was done in a fashion that didn’t model all the complexities of DMA and the memory system. Using a 1Kx1K matrix and 8 SPE they were able to achieve 73.4GFLOPS, but the PS3 uses 6 SPE for games and these tests were done in controlled environments. So going on this information, even 73.4GFLOPS is seemingly out of reach, showing us that Sony didn’t necessarily lie about the cell’s performance as they made clear the 218GFLOPS was “theoretical.” But just like Microsoft they definitely wanted you to misinterpret these numbers into believing they were achievable.

    Even while taking all of this into consideration, the CPUs can’t reach those crazy performance numbers; the PS3’s cell still comfortably comes out on top in terms of overall floating point capability, but it should be known that the available power on the PS3’s cell will be significantly more difficult to harness than the available power on the 360’s CPU.

    It’s also worth mentioning that even the PS2 CPU had more than twice the GFLOPS of the original Xbox’s CPU, but it didn’t necessarily lead it to being the performance winner. This time around, while the cell has the GFLOPS advantage, its advantage isn’t quite as big as the PS2 CPU had on the Xbox. This teaches us that there is more than one meter of real world performance.

    The PS3’s cell processor has 1 Power PC core similar to that of the 3 Power PC cores sustaining the 360’s 3 core design (without the vmx-128 enhancements available on each of the 360’s cores) and 7 SPE (synergistic processing element). The 8th is disabled to improve yields. One of the SPE is used to run the PS3’s operating system while the other 6 are available for games. The reason the PS3’s CPU will be significantly more difficult to program for is because the CPU is asymmetric, unlike the 360’s CPU. Because of the PS3 CPU only having 1 PPE compared to the 360’s 3, all game control, scripting, AI and other branch intensive code will need to be crammed into two threads which share a very narrow execution core and no instruction window. The cell’s SPE will be unable to help out here as they are not as robust; hence, not fit for accelerating things such as AI, as it’s fairly branch intensive and the SPE lacks branch prediction capability entirely.

    I’m sure people remember from the section detailing how the 360 and PS3’s processors are less robust compared to processors we use on our desktop computers and the consequences of being in order execution. Well the PS3’s SPE are further stripped down than even the Power PC Cores and, as a result, isn’t as capable of handling as many different types of code like the 1 Power PC Core available on the PS3’s cell or the 3 Power PC Cores available on the 360’s CPU. The problem with being asymmetric is when you program for the Power PC Core on the PS3 CPU, the method of programming you used to get the most out of that Power PC core is no longer effective when breaking off tasks for the SPE to work on. Going from the PPE to the SPE on the PS3 requires a different compiler and a different set of tools.

    When you come to the realization that the key to making up for the CPU is in-order execution is the rather complicated parallel programming, you realize that the CPU being asymmetric and having just a single PPE makes something that was already extremely difficult even more difficult. So a developer’s job is harder when you factor in that the PS3 has a 512KB L2 cache which is half the size of the 360 CPU’s 1MB L2 cache… that single PPE the PS3 CPU has isn’t receiving much help with branches in the cache department.

    Microsoft made a better decision from the perspective of the developer; it’s still difficult, but much easier compared to working with the Cell architecture. The 360’s CPU isn’t asymmetric like the PS3’s cell and has 3 PPE as opposed to 1, but all 3 are robust enough to help handle the type of code only the PS3’s single PPE is capable of handling. When Microsoft says they have three times the general purpose processing power this is what they mean. Based on the simple fact that the 360 has 3 Power PC cores to the PS3’s 1, more processing power can be dedicated to helping with things such as game control AI, scripting and other types of branch intensive code.

    From the perspective of a developer the 360’s CPU’s biggest advantage is that all 3 of the 360’s cores are identical, all run from the same memory pool and they’re synchronized, in addition to being cache coherent. You can just create an extra thread right in your program and have it do some work. This allows the developer to create very nice structures so if you know how to get the best possible performance out of one core you know how to get the best possible performance out of all 3 because they operate in perfect synch.

    Each core on the 360’s processor is capable of performing 2 threads each (Think of it as similar to hyper threading), so the 360’s CPU is capable of handling 6 simultaneous running threads at once. This brings me to a very important advantage for the PS3’s Cell CPU, its concurrency. While the 360 CPU may be able to handle 6 processor threads simultaneously it still only has 3 physical CPU cores so every 2 threads must share processing power on a single core. Whereas with the PS3, it has 1 PPE and 6 SPE for games, which are like extra physical processors). If each of the PS3’s 6 SPE used for games are working on a specific task such as collision, cloth physics, animation, water surface simulation or particles, they wouldn’t need to worry about processing power being taken away from another part of the game because the SPE don’t share processing power.

    The only cause for concern would be the 512KB L2 cache being shared by 7 simultaneous running SPE and a PPE, but that’s what developers are for; they work around things like this. In practice, this should allow PS3 games to potentially have more things going on at once than 360 games. Ignoring the difficulties of programming for the PS3 CPU, it should be known that the PS3’s CPU is very good when it comes to vertex-related operations because the PS3’s CPU handles graphics code better than the 360’s CPU. It is also possible that through good parallelism of physics code on the SPE that physics code could also run better on the PS3 CPU due to the concurrency advantage.

    The 360 CPU however, due to its 3 symmetric General Purpose Cores, is not only much easier to program for than the cell, but having 3 PPE capable of handling things such as AI also means the 360’s CPU will be the better of the 2 CPUs when it comes to AI code. Either way we can look forward to great things from both CPUs in the future.

    Before I end off, I’d like to point out a game that in my opinion, from a technical standpoint, is one the most brilliant uses of the PS3’s CPU. All things considered, such as in-order execution and the other complications of the architecture, Heavenly Sword is quite the standout in nearly every regard: incredible combat animations, awesome group enemy AI, and great physics. At the very least this is what I gathered from seeing videos of the E3 demo; it’s a reminder that regardless of the challenges, there are developers that are up to the challenge and its only going to get better with time.

  • Kevin

    Dispelling Some of the Hype

    Now there are people that look at the 360 having a triple core processor and the PS3 with the much publicized Cell Processor and start to wonder…
    # #1 How in God’s name can the 360 ship with a 3 core processor in November 2005 while there isn’t an available purchase for 3 or 4 core CPUs for desktop computers?
    # #2 Why didn’t Intel or AMD manufacture and start selling such a processor at the same time or before the Xbox 360 shipped?
    # #3 How can the cell have 1 Power PC core and, in addition to that, have 7 SPE, which are basically seven extra processors?
    # #4 Everyone knows processors aren’t cheap and when you factor in everything else you need, it’s even more expensive. How can Microsoft get away with charging as low as $299 for the Xbox 360? How can Sony get away with charging as low as $500 for the PS3, when the processors themselves cost 90% of the PS3’s price or cost more than $500?

    Marketing talk from Microsoft and Sony: The processors inside these machines are extremely powerful and cutting edge you literally have a supercomputer in your home as the Xbox 360 has 1 Teraflop worth of computing power and the PS3 has 2 Teraflops worth of computing power.

    TRUTH: Both the 360 and PS3’s CPUs are heavily stripped down compared to what most of us are probably using on our desktop computers to view this article. Both consoles are labeled as 3.2GHZ, but they don’t offer performance comparable to that of a typical Athlon 64 3200+ or better than even an Athlon XP 2800+ CPU. The CPUs inside the Xbox 360 and PS3 are “In-Order Execution” CPUs with narrow execution cores, whereas what we use on our computers are classified as “Out-of-Order Execution” CPUs with wider execution cores.

    The reason they can sell for so cheap is because they are not as robust or complex as what we have inside our computers. The execution theme in both the 360 and PS3’s CPUs is similar to that of what you would see in the original Intel Pentium Processor. (Not referring to the Pentium 2 3 or 4, but the original) This is because they’ve stripped out hardware designed to optimize the scheduling of instructions at runtime. As a result, neither the 360 nor PS3’s CPU contain an instruction window. Instead, instructions pass through the processor in the order in which they were fetched; hence both are “In-Order Execution” CPUs.

    Marketing talk from Microsoft and Sony: Thanks to these multi-core processors developers will be able to multi-thread their games and get significant performance improvements and achieve Artificial Intelligence in games that people previously thought impossible for a videogame. It’ll be as if you’re playing with another living breathing human being.

    TRUTH: “What is the big deal? How exactly does the fact that both processors being “In-Order Execution” CPUs hurt them? Well, see the 3.2GHZ clock speed for both CPUs? The type of nasty game code, full of branches, loops etc… that would’ve been greatly improved speedwise, thanks to out-of-order execution and a wider execution core is not there to help, so that 3.2GHZ actually performs slower than out-of-order execution CPUs available to desktop computer users.

    This brings us to the very reason why both the PS3 and Xbox 360 are using multiple processors in an effort to combat the lack of an instruction window and the fact that they have a narrow execution core. It gets even better, because this very same code that they hope to speed up using parallelism on multiple cores isn’t by any means parallel programming friendly.

    On the other hand, Graphics-related code is great on both these processors, as graphics code is nice and parallelism friendly. There is a reason people consider graphics accelerators to be the poster child for parallelism. As a matter of fact, it’s the most successful form of parallelism the field of computer science has ever witnessed. GPUs are able to get all transistors firing that actually produce a significant real world benefit to the people using the product.

    For the CPU to become more like the GPU is the ultimate goal for many and AMD together with ATI seem to be going for it. The cell processor is actually one such attempt to do so, but it’s not yet at the level everyone had hoped. (Perhaps a bit early as a cell like CPU isn’t on Intel’s to do list until about 2015) Long story short, both Microsoft and Sony have given developers more than enough on the graphics side of things, but at the same time, are asking developers to do more with less on the aspects of the game unrelated to graphics.

  • Kenshin

    Any of you xbox 360 fanboys seend metal gear solid 4? that should silence you about the Playstation 3

  • jermaine

    i just think the ps3 is getting even for when the ps2 power was crap compare to the xbox but if u remenber even tho the xbox had better grahpic the ps2 had more of better games but not to say that xbox dont have any good ones but instead of putting all this power in the system they should be like the wii something fun and new and cheaper the xbox did get there with the price tho (only 50$ more then the wii) infact i dont even think i get a ps3 till it around 300 to 250 cause i cant aford no 400-650$ for a system i see if it was coming with some games like the wii bundle pack but it not and i no why it cost so much because of the blueray but nether of them is going to last long if the prices keep going up in a bad government *cough* bush *cough* *cough*

  • jermaine

    also i for got to state that each system shouldn’t be compare cause each system have there own sytle of uniquiness like the ps3 have more power this time and the 360 have better online (xbox live ) support even tho i think it should still be free like ps online and the wii have all new controlles (witch rocks ) each system have up and downs and if u want to pick a system to go with then u have to ask ur self what system is close to you r u a rpg fan or action fan then that ps3 if ur a fps to action fan then that xbox 360 if u just want to have fun or have kids that u dont want them to see blood splat all over the screen (witch aint a big deal but that me) then u should go wii
    and the ds is a system no one talk about but it have fun games and psp have afew but there just getting started but so far it still not a good reason to buy a psp right now only 5 games i can think about ( well 3-4 really ) that is good on the hole system so instead of saying who is better and trying to force ppl on ur side u should just let them deside for them self’s

  • Fadesofblack

    Anyone hasn’t said this yet but has anyone else noticed the RSX is on a 128 bit memory bus. If that isn’t one hell of a bottleneck for that fast GPU then I dunno what is.

  • G-MAN

    I think both systems are great. If you look at the previous gen systems they both did well even with all there inferior technology compared to todays systems. The sony is more powerfull but to new for programmers to make the most if it. Where XBOX 360 is riding the wave with current technology rather than futuristic which is easier for programers to build software so they can make the games. XBOX 360 definitely has the upper hand now the games prove it. PS3 will eventually have better games once the software becomes more compatible to the hardware. That’s where things stand now as for the memory advantage their more to it than MB’s you must consider memory latency, bandwidth, bus speed. Cause 256mb of XDR is very quick compared to say a 1GB of SD ram from a intel Pentium 3. So the size is not always the answer unless you’ve got a huge texture area all loaded at once. In any case I’m glad their both out cause otherwise niether system would be as good. After all competition a game for them as it is for us.

  • kert

    The problem for the PS3 is a bit like the problem the Xbox1 had,the time devolopers make use of any PS3 advantage the next round of consoles will be here,,the 360 has all the BIG games “NOW”(look at the 360 March AAA titles) and also whereeas before Nintendo were not a feature they certainly are now.

  • M 83

    How long you guys think it will take. Before all these web sites and the freak fan base that Maicrosoft has. Will read the numbers and just say Ok it is. lol. How lear does it have to be written. Justlike the Xbox was more powerful than the PS2. The PS3 is more powerful than the 260. Granted when the Xbox first came out. It did not look that great compared to the PS2. But than again the PS3 has wont start killing the 360 in graphics bad. Intill they really dig that unknown hardwear. Which will be a while. I love it thow. Becuase now. Everyone is fooled into thinking. Ok the PS3 will only look slightly better. Thats a cool thing. Becuase if the PS3 has that game in 2008 that does finally show some of the PS3 power. People wont expect it. And its gonna draw a tun of attention.


  • Play The Darkness 2 Right Now!

  • Recent Comments

  • Sign Up For Video Game News!

  • Archives